Comments on Basement Dwellers: Is Barry Larkin a Hall of Famer? A look at Retros...

I do do the same for Dagoberto Campaneris, Sean, a...

2009-02-10T12:38:00.000-05:00

I do do the same for Dagoberto Campaneris, Sean, and I support both Campy and Concepción for the Hall. As I regularly note, you couldn't win a World Series from 1972-76 without a Latin shortstop with the initials D.C.

I can live with that, especially the 1970s SS adju...

2009-01-24T22:05:00.000-05:00

I can live with that, especially the 1970s SS adjustment (think that era 3B: Rose, Menke, and a few other names (Dressen, iirc) that don't exactly scream "range" in the first twenty adjectives.

Concepcion has a tough case. Even in batting wins...

2009-01-24T18:20:00.000-05:00

Concepcion has a tough case. Even in batting wins above replacement, he's actually behind Ozzie.

To get him in you have to believe that his defense was near equal to Ozzie and give the 1970's shortstops a huge positional adjustment. Do that and you have to do the same for Bert Campaneris.

More discussion here at BBTF.

Thanks Rally--I'd meant to include your DP numbers...

2009-01-24T16:25:00.000-05:00

Thanks Rally--I'd meant to include your DP numbers in the defensive performance, but forgot to do so.

The baserunning is also nice to have--continues to help Larkin's case, and makes Ozzie's a bit stronger. I still see Aparicio as an outlier, but these data also give him a bit of a leg up. Concepcion, unfortunately, is still pretty far out. A 2-win boost in DP numbers doesn't help a whole lot.

This is really a preliminary study--at some point, I'm planning to do this using my own linear weights with my database, while also including your defensive numbers. I still won't have good baserunning data, but at least I'll include SB's and GDP's. But this was a quick and easy assessment that is still probably pretty close to the mark in relative rankings. -j

Baseball reference's batting runs counts hitting o...

2009-01-24T12:03:00.000-05:00

Baseball reference's batting runs counts hitting only. It does not count SB/CS, let alone other baserunning and avoiding DP.

Here are some baserunning numbers, combining SB/ GIDP, and other baserunning into one number (Runs +/-)

Larkin +93
Ozzie +109
Aparicio +113
Concepcion +15

Another thing to consider is that the +7.5 position adjustment for shortstop that is used recently may not be the right figure to use for the past. Some preliminary research leads me to believe it should be closer to +10 per season before 2000, Dan Rosenheck uses an even bigger adjustment.

I've got Concepcion as +30 on TZ, another +20 in turning double plays. His baserunning is +28 in steals and advancement, but -13 in hitting into DP's.